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User talk:Longbowe
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This will display your name and the time you put it there, so we know who needs help. :The Cyber Nations Wiki Staff RE: Colon Done :) Michael von Preußen voicemail • nation Karma Well, several things. One, I'm really not sure why I didn't revert your edits back then. Perhaps I did not want to start an edit war. Two, the fact that TOP was on that side of the war, regardless of official affiliation with "Karma" or not, makes them part of the war coalition, which is what the article is about. Three, Lol pie, a fellow administrator, reverted your edits. As someone who believes in administrator autonomy, even if I agreed that TOP was not part of Karma, which I do not, I would still revert to his edits until I had discussed the matter with him. However, he and I are in agreement on the matter, that TOP was part of the Karma war coalition regardless of whether they said they were part of it or not, and so the third point is unimportant right now anyway. Karma is formed not by back room negotiations, as it was not an "official" alliance, but by how the Treaty Web was arranged at the beginning of the Karma War. Alliances do not choose whether or not they are part of a war coalition, they simply are or are not. Drawing a real-life comparison: when Canada entered World War II, it didn't say "We're part of the ," nor did Italy say it was going to become part of the . They became part of the Allies and Axis respectively because they were opposing a specific group in the war. To draw a Cyber Nations comparison, alliances that joined one side of the war or another in the War of the Coalition were classed as part of the Coalition or as part of F>I/Gambit simply because of which side of the war they entered in on, not because they got together with other alliances and said "Hey! Let's call ourselves !" TOP entered the war fighting against alliances that were allied with the NPO. These nations were all on one side of the war. By entering the war against them, TOP placed itself on the other side of the war. That side of the war is covered in the article "Karma" because it was and is collectively known as Karma. Official declarations do not alter this, as TOP can only disassociate itself with every other alliance on that side of the war so much. Karma is Karma for the mere fact of being opposed to the NPO and those tied to it via the Treaty Web in the Karma War, and as TOP did such, it was a member of Karma regardless of its official association. Lol pie and I are both administrators on this Wiki and both agree that TOP was a de facto member of Karma and thus warrants being listed on the page regarding Karma. I have made my position clear, and am not going to be swayed on the matter. If you can convince Lol pie to change his position, there is a chance that TOP may be removed from the page. As it stands, though, that is not going to happen. Michael von Preußen voicemail • nation :Right, I shall handle your points in order: First, failure to undo any previous edit does not condone its accuracy. It doesn't now, and it didn't in July. There are a lot of factors that may contribute to my not undoing the edit, none of which, aside from my personal conviction on this or any other particular matter, would indicate my agreement with the edit. :Second point: this has nothing to do with Archon or LiquidMercury. I fought as a member of a Karma-alligned alliance, one that similarly never said it was "part" of Karma, and do not recognize anything Archon said to have directly represented me. That does not mean that my alliance - iFOK - was not a member of Karma. Furthermore, Karma is not a political association, but a war coalition. If all Karma members had signed a treaty saying "Yes, we're all members, blah blah blah," and TOP had then declined to sign, that would alter matters significantly. War coalitions are not founded by a treaty, however, but by the network of treaties, which TOP was tied into. :Your third point is invalid again. The majority of DoWs, or perhaps, at least many of them, do not mention Karma or the Hegemony. They issue specific declarations of war against specific alliances that are on one side or another. Yet they are still separated into the two sides of the war nonetheless. :Now, regarding my edit, you are correct. I did put that in. That does not mean that they were not part of Karma, only that they say they are not part of Karma. Now, perhaps it would be acceptable to similarly list TOP on the Karma page, but put the same note on that page as well? This would be my proposal for compromise. :As for Canada, as a Canadian, I know that the Statute of Westminster, signed in 1931, gave Canada the ability to declare war. We did not have the ability to declare war in World War I, perhaps you are confused. We declared war on 3 September 1939. Michael von Preußen voicemail • nation ::Right, first off, I was not an administrator in July. I didn't become an administrator until August. So don't accuse the administration as a whole of apathy. If there was no particular reason on my part why I didn't resolve the issue at that time, then accuse me of apathy, but not the administration. However, the fact remains that other administrators who were administrators in July - namely Lol pie - did see this as an error and revert the edit. In fact, it was Lol pie's initial reversion of an edit of yours this month that began this discussion. ::Now, you are right, the article does call Archon a political figurehead. Perhaps the article needs more revising, after all, as we see from this discussion, history is still open to dispute. Now, while several announcements were made on behalf of Karma by Archon, most if not all of them carried alongside the word Karma the specific alliances it was regarding, as not one announcement did or even could affect all "members" of Karma. The alliances the individual announcements concerned would, I believe, have authorized the statements to be issued on their behalf expressly. Just because Archon never spoke on behalf of TOP does not mean TOP was not a member of Karma. As for Karma forums or IRC - I was never aware that such existed, though if you could provide links, I'd be glad to look at them. ::Now, you are right, "coalition" does not mean "side". However, in the history of CyberNations, the term "war coalition" has been used to denote a certain side in a specific war created via a chain of treaties - ~ was a coalition, as was Karma and the Coalition and the CoaLUEtion and anyone else on one side of a major war. I do not know what TOP's views on treaty chaining are, but I'd believe them to be largely irrelevant, as one alliance's views cannot dictate how the world perceives historical fact. ::As for my proposal, I shall implement it for the time being as we continue to discuss the matter. ::Regarding the sub-conversation on Canada, it would make sense that the Prime Minister would have to receive the permission of the king, as the king was, as Queen Elizabeth is today, the , equivalent to the monarch or president of any other parliamentary democracy with a constitutional monarchy or presidential system. Michael von Preußen voicemail • nation Re:hello Why hello Longbowe! ~Dynasty1 (Nation • Talk Page) 15:35, December 23, 2009 (UTC) RE: Redirect Chances are you didn't actually set it up, but rather assumed you had after you got to your userpage using the search bar (which will automatically insert the namespace if it doesn't find an article). I've set up the redirect, it should function fine now. Michael von Preußen voicemail • nation @ 1:67, Septidi, 17 Ventôse CCXVIII RE: Capitalization of "The" As I have explained this countless times to countless people, I think I'm going to have to put a notice up somewhere. One should always decapitalize "the" in the middle of a sentence. 'The' is simply an article, after all. The only reason it is capitalized in 'The Order of the Paradox' is because it is the first word. Compare The International or The German Empire. Both of these articles have the 'The' capitalized, however, when one is mentioning them or even linking to them in a sentence, it is not: Similarly, article titles regarding them, and thus TOP and any other alliance using 'The' as its first word, follow suit: Constitution of the International, History of the International, Constitution of the German Empire, History of the Democratic Order, and Former Government of the Order of the Paradox. Michael von Preußen voicemail • nation @ 0:55, Octidi, 18 Ventôse CCXVIII :This is a generally-accepted wiki policy based off of Wikipedia's Manual of Style, which is incorporated into our own Manual of Style. This is not like the title of a movie, it is the name of an organization, and as such article capitalization follows the same conventions as in normal writing. If you purposely continue to violate the Manual of Style, which was voted on and accepted by the Wiki community, you will be warned under CN:VANDAL. Michael von Preußen voicemail • nation @ 0:62, Octidi, 18 Ventôse CCXVIII ::Indeed, you are correct. However, I said "based on", not "copied exactly". This issue has come up before, and the consensus was to follow the method which I have described: such consensuses have been made regarding many of the articles I listed in my above post. Michael von Preußen voicemail • nation @ 0:68, Octidi, 18 Ventôse CCXVIII :::Wiki policy is sometimes based off of official policy, which is voted on (such as the Manual of Style), and it is sometimes based off of consensuses made during discussion regarding possible actions - such is the case here. As we have been discussing this, you may have noticed that the page The Order Of Light has been moved to The Order of Light by another user, who did so following these same conventions. This is a generally-accepted convention of this Wiki which I am describing, as proven by the consensuses made during discussions regarding the Democratic Order and the German Empire, where a clear majority of involved users agreed on this method. Michael von Preußen voicemail • nation @ 0:73, Octidi, 18 Ventôse CCXVIII ::::My citation of the Manual of Style was an error on my part; I've made this clear. It is not in the Manual of Style, it is the result of consensus-based policy making. For the title of the article, the 'The' can be capitalized because it is the title of the article. However, when linking to it in mid-sentence, it should be 'the'. I have explained to you how this policy was arrived at, and I have explained to you the reasoning behind it. As you have been verbally warned via this conversation, I will have no choice but to enforce the policy as it stands should you choose to purposely violate it. Michael von Preußen voicemail • nation @ 0:84, Octidi, 18 Ventôse CCXVIII I stand by my ruling based off of the aforementioned consensus. However, seeing that there is considerable resistance to this consensus, I will bring the issue up (with a few others) sometime soon for a formal policy vote. Michael von Preußen voicemail • nation @ 0:95, Octidi, 18 Ventôse CCXVIII :Fair enough. Once the policy discussion opens, I'll leave you a message so you can make your argument in it. Michael von Preußen voicemail • nation @ 1:00, Octidi, 18 Ventôse CCXVIII RE: DAWN's flag Noted, thanks. I'll move that later today. Michael von Preußen voicemail • nation @ 4:05, Septidi, 17 Germinal CCXVIII